Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby drake on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:08 am

needchange wrote:This forum is taking all sorts of swings in all directions but that's no problem because it's all connected.

Well, as long as it don't swing both ways I'm good..... :lol:
Back to the point about the state of product quality worldwide. It just seems to me that the idea of capitalism somehow doing for the rich today and latter supplying the same for the poor is no existant. As I said my grandparents house and the things they lived with were more durable and lasting than what is available today. The system seems to support new products and innovation but does not maintain the quality of products over time. Is this a general note about capitalism?

Yes and no.
Free Market Capitalism is about allowing the market to dictate the cost/quality/availability of goods while attempting to maintain the maximum profit. Price point is a big issue.
The general public can not afford the quality goods so they the MFG creates something that the public can afford at the cost of quality of the product.
A prime example would be the Ford Model T.
Up to that time all automobiles were custom built and only a few can afford to buy one but the Model T changed that.
You can't get the Model T with hand rubbed Mahogany dashboard,
or with a factory color of anything other than black,
or a V8.
Those are the 'sacrifices in quality'.

Not to say that the manufacturers today don't crank out 'pure cr*p' to peddle to the unsuspecting public in name of profit.
That is not capitalism, it's someone defrauding the public for profit.
It's not a new issue, just a larger manifestation of a condition of humanity.
Caveat Emptor.

In Thailand, to me at least it seems a rarity that people including the government act on issues of quality.

You can say that again.
BUT where do we start ?
Should we spend our personal effort to educate those who we come in to contact with or
should we organize the community to go hassle the government to do the enforcement ?

Uh, like we need more regulatory agency anywhere for any reason.....

Ideally, I'm for teaching the people to be self sufficient.
It's like picking produce at the market.
If the ppl know how to reject the bad produce the vendor will eventually stop trying to peddle them because they don't make the sale. IT's no fault of the vendor if you picked the green ones and they are bitter but if everyone stop buying the green ones the vendor will have to bring something else better to sell to make a living. :mrgreen:
If ppl know how to select quality goods and chooses to do so then that will eventually force the vendor to change their supplier and improve the overall quality of the goods.
No stinking govt. meddling required.

Ideally, I said.
Human nature prevails at the end.
Do you buy a legit $25 DVD from an authorized vendor in Siam Paragon or the $1 version from a sidewalk stall that often dies after 3 days ?

:cheers:
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Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby needchange on Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:31 pm

Great points.

Back to quality...

It is all about money. Businesses say they want to keep jobs in the nation but the market just won't let them. The market won't let them. That's a funny line. It either means that the business owner can't do what he wants or it means he's just a /////. Maybe the market is wrong. The excuse to move manufacturing overseas is one more step to the crap products we see. You could say that any product that gets move abroad for labor costs is doomed to low quality. First they say, we just can't make it here because labor is too expensive. Then they go abroad and the next step is ruining the product's quality to compete. I can't figure out how this all works.

I am not against government intervention in the marketplace. Regulations have saved millions of lives in the US.

As for free markets what do you think of the relationship between the government and military contractors in places like the US. What should we think of these companies which produce excellent quality in weapons, equipment, food,etc. What are they examples of? Why are they not mentioned when it comes to pushing less regulations and capitalist ideals. Would the government get a better army just purchasing everything on the free market? Right now the market for military supplies seems to have the most government support and it has the highest quality products most of the time.
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Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby bew on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:43 pm

Now let me swing back why China can produce cheap products, but Thailand can't do.
China opened its door to Capitalism in 1979, much later than Thailand, but now it's overtaken Thailand in terms of products & technology. PRC (People's Republic of China) use its hugh size of market to draw FDI (foreign direct investment) from industrialised countries, US, EU & Japan. The spillover effect of technology happened. Chinese companies start to copy & steal foreign technologies through supply linkage, transfer of manpower, local content regulation and other means. While the Chinese employees who left foreign companies can start up their business, their Thai counterparts can't do. Because of poor education system & a widespread worldview of Art/Craft/Agriculture Cottage in Thai society, Thai staff who left foreign hi-tech firms can't handle technology transfer for their upstart firms. So Thai firms can't move up the technological ladder like Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese firms have done. Poorly trained human resources are the main obstruction of technological development. Because labour costs in Thailand is rising, most light industries have moved to PRC, Indonesia & Vietnam. The low skill labour lost their job and can't move to work in service sector. Now Thailand is struck in the middle, between inability to compete with PRC, Vietnam & Indonesia in low-cost manufacturing product, and inability to compete with Japan, S Korea, Taiwan & even PRC in hi-tech products. So PM Abhisit urges Thai private sector to diversify the economy, but how? Shall we go for tourism & hospitality business? This is a failure of mentality among Thai elites. You can't reach self-sufficient economy without good technology on hand. Technological development has long been ignored in Thailand, unfortunately.
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Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby jungledave on Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:10 pm

I have lived here for over 13 years and I have come to the conclusion that EVERYTHING I buy here will fail/break within one year or shortly after the warranty expires. So - YES - I gamble and buy Chinese goods. Surprise - they last longer than the Thai produced goods and are cheaper.

In the US, and I am sure other Western countries, we have a MINIMUM of a one year warranty - and if the product fails or breaks - just bring in the receipt and - you will get a new, replacement. Here you have to bring the product back, with receipt and/or warranty sticker - still intact - and then wait weeks or months to get the product back - if at all. @#$%^ that.

So again - I gamble - most recently on a Lon Chin Generator (Baht 24,000) because the electricity has been so sketchy lately up here in the Jungles of Isaan.

Peace and Love, Peace and Love.


JD
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Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby Voice on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:34 pm

Hello needchange! I do agree with you there about Thailand should encouraging our Thai companies to be more productive which could help our country in this economic crisis. As Thailand still has cheap labour our good could be compatible with China or we could go for quality good items like electronic gadget as such. The government should invest more in it people rather prodding in single area of agriculture. Even in the area we still cannot beat China for the best price for we can make.
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Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby jerryc on Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:45 pm

does it make sense to rely on another country for your food?

in a time of war, what do you think happens to you if you are reliant on another country for anything?

consider this... do you think china would allow themselves to ever rely on another country for anything?

learn from the mistakes that america is making now. or you will make the same mistakes.
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Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby drake on Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:03 am

In the US news today
- Solar company Solyndra to close factory, cut jobs
- All this despite a $535-million federal loan guarantee, more than $1 billion in private equity funds....
- Competition from other solar panel makers is a major culprit. Manufacturers in China especially are offering hard-to-beat prices.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby drake on Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:53 am

Voice wrote:Hello needchange! I do agree with you there about Thailand should encouraging our Thai companies to be more productive which could help our country in this economic crisis.

Say, Voice.
There isn't really an "economic crisis" in Thailand right now.
SET has gone through the roof this year and the exchange rate is at the best it's been in over a decade.

The state of general prosperity, that is something else completely different.

As Thailand still has cheap labour our good could be compatible with China or we could go for quality good items like electronic gadget as such.

Industrial advances or economic prosperity and employment does not have a direct relationship these days as robots can do a large number of jobs better and cheaper than man.
'Cheap labor' alone just don't cut it anymore.
Look at India and Mexico and ask yourself why aren't they ahead of China ?

The government should invest more in it people rather prodding in single area of agriculture.
Even in the area we still cannot beat China for the best price for we can make.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
The leadership for this country, and I'm being overly generous with that word, are without a clue.
They are stuck in a box, a very small box.
They shuns new ideas and concepts.
Most of them can't think of anything beyond their own gains.
Sacrifice and service, that is just hollow propaganda for someone else.

Yes, the country should invest in the people and their education but there are several other major obstacles.
The fanciful social & environmental responsibility directive is one.
I mean, who in the right mind would want to deal with the new worker's rights and environmental redtapes on top of the corruptions and the Manana attitude when they can go to China, or VietNam, or Podunk and won't have to deal with most of that ?
Then, on the physical side, the country has anemic shipping infrastructure and inadequate supply of electrical energy.
Without electricity there is no industry.
Look like VietNam got that msg loud and clear and is seriously doing something about it by committing to a Nuke.
Thai govt., well, they are still tooling about on that subject as if they've got all the time in the world.
They might get around to decide to talk about this sometime after hell froze over and all the foreign Green Nut NGOs or (foreign) special interest lobby had stop meddling, and all the officials agree on their piece of the pie.
I mean, they've only been talking about digging a canal across the Kra Isthmus (คอคอดกระ) since the day of King Narai and nothing has been done so far beyond kicking the tires and a lot more talk.

There's always the next life to get around to do it, right ?
:cheers:
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Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby needchange on Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:17 am

[]quoteThe leadership for this country, and I'm being overly generous with that word, are without a clue.
They are stuck in a box, a very small box.
They shuns new ideas and concepts.
Most of them can't think of anything beyond their own gains.
Sacrifice and service, that is just hollow propaganda for someone else.

[/quote]

It's time for the old leadership here to move out and for others to make a decision for real dramatic change. I don't agree with your points about Thailand having too many regulations because I don't see it. In fact, Thailand is probably as open as any country in the region to industry. As for vietnam getting more business lately they are just new and cheap to the marketplace. If anything, corruption goes a lot further there when it comes to foreigners. Thailand's laws against foreigners investing in Thailand are just wacky at times.

Some think it's a good idea to have nuclear power. North Korean is the perfect model for that I guess then. A country with nuclear expertise whose people are living in the stone age. Having nuclear tech doesn't mean a darn thing. Lets hope that Thailand's neighbors don't have any accidents as that would basically kill off all of southeast asia. Let's just home the tech is more advanced and those monitoring the plants have higher quality standards than those at Chernobyl.
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Re: Choosing cheap Chinese Products over Thai jobs

Postby bew on Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:20 pm

I agree with K.Drake on the lack of visionary leaders in Thailand and K.Needchange on regulation. The problem isn't the regulation per se, but is the consistence of law enforement. The enforcement in environmental regulation at Map Ta Phut is stricted, while in the other area is very lax. The law enforcement is quite selective.
Why China stays ahead of India & Mexico was a topic for discussion in my class yesterday. I've been to all these three countries. For Mexican case, higher cost of labour as a result of NAFTA and product quality as a result of poorly trained human resources and Mañana mentality are main factors. For Indian case, very poor quality in work and lack of time-conciousness probably owing to many religious festival in India. The high in English of Indian people doesn't guarantee product quality and punctuality. You can see difference in work quality between Indian & Chinese construction workers in Singapore.
Investment in human resource is very important, but only leaders who have a strategic vision can see this.
Let me predict the future of Thailand:
1.Low-skill Thai workers will lose their jobs forever. Only few of them go back to rice paddy field.
2.Thailand will have by both hi-tech & low-tech products from China forever. Owing to cost, Thailand can't compete with China for low-tech products. Owing to technological development, Thailand can't compete with China for hi-tech products.
The advantage of China's economy of scale over Thailand's one will be a decisive factor.
3.Thailand will rely on tourism based on Art/Craft/Agricultural Cottage until this industry is insustainable.
4.Sex industry will prosper & last forever, as low-skilled female workers can't find any other jobs.
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